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Section 129

Alcibiades. Impossible.

Socrates. Does it then happen to be easy to know oneself, and was it some simpleton who dedicated this in the temple at Pytho, or is it something difficult and not for everyone?

Alcibiades. To me, Socrates, it has often seemed to be for everyone, and often extremely difficult.

Socrates. But, Alcibiades, whether it is easy or not, nevertheless it stands thus for us: knowing it we might quickly know the care of ourselves, but being ignorant of it, never.

Alcibiades. That is so.

Socrates. Come then, in what way might itself be found? For thus we might perhaps find what on earth we ourselves are, but still being in ignorance of this we surely cannot.

Alcibiades. You speak correctly.

Socrates. Hold on then, by Zeus. With whom are you conversing now? Is it anyone else but me?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. And I with you?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. Then Socrates is the one conversing?

Alcibiades. Very much so.

Socrates. And Alcibiades is the one listening?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. Therefore Socrates converses using speech?

Alcibiades. Of course.

Socrates. And you call conversing and using speech the same thing, I suppose.

Alcibiades. Very much so.

Socrates. But the one using and what he uses are not different things?

Alcibiades. How do you mean?

Socrates. Just as a shoemaker cuts with a knife and an awl and other tools.

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. Is not the one cutting and using different from the things he uses to cut?

Alcibiades. How could he not be?

Socrates. And in this way also the things with which the lyre-player plays the lyre and the lyre-player himself would be different?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. This then is what I was asking just now, whether the one using and what he uses always seem to be different.

Alcibiades. They do.

Socrates. What then shall we say of the shoemaker? Does he cut with tools only or also with his hands?

Alcibiades. With his hands too.

Socrates. Therefore he uses these as well?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. And does he also use his eyes when shoemaking?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. And do we agree that the one using and what he uses are different?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. Therefore the shoemaker and lyre-player are different from the hands and eyes with which they work?

Alcibiades. It appears so.

Socrates. Does not a man also use his whole body?

Alcibiades. Very much so.

Socrates. And the one using and what he uses were different?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. Therefore a man is different from his own body?

Alcibiades. It seems so.

Socrates. What on earth then is the man?

Alcibiades. I am unable to say.

Socrates. But you are able, that it is the thing which uses the body.

Alcibiades. Yes.