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Section 125

Socrates. And by the noble and good do you mean the wise or the foolish?

Alcibiades. The wise.

Socrates. Therefore in whatever a man is wise, in that he is good?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. And in whatever he is foolish, he is bad?

Alcibiades. How could he not be?

Socrates. Is the shoemaker then wise concerning the making of shoes?

Alcibiades. Very much so.

Socrates. So he is good in this?

Alcibiades. Good.

Socrates. What then? Is the shoemaker not foolish concerning the making of clothes?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. So he is bad at this?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. Therefore the same man, by this argument at least, is both bad and good.

Alcibiades. It appears so.

Socrates. Do you then mean that good men are also bad?

Alcibiades. Certainly not.

Socrates. But who on earth do you mean by the good men?

Alcibiades. I mean those who are able to rule in the city.

Socrates. Not over horses, surely?

Alcibiades. Certainly not.

Socrates. But over men?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. When they are sick?

Alcibiades. No.

Socrates. When they are sailing?

Alcibiades. I do not mean that.

Socrates. When they are harvesting?

Alcibiades. No.

Socrates. But when they are doing nothing, or doing something?

Alcibiades. Doing something, I say.

Socrates. What? Try to make it clear to me too.

Alcibiades. Those who deal with themselves and associate with one another, just as we live in the cities.

Socrates. So you mean ruling over men who are associating with men?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. Do you mean boatswains ruling over rowers?

Alcibiades. Certainly not.

Socrates. For that is the pilot's skill?

Alcibiades. Yes.

Socrates. Do you mean ruling over flute-players, leading men in song and using chorus members?

Alcibiades. Certainly not.

Socrates. For that is again the chorus trainer's skill?

Alcibiades. Very much so.

Socrates. But what do you mean by being able to rule over men associating with men?

Alcibiades. I mean ruling over those sharing in the state and associating with one another, those in the city.

Socrates. What then is this art? Just as if I were to ask you again the same thing just now, what art makes one know how to rule over those sharing in a voyage?

Alcibiades. Pilotage.

Socrates. And over those sharing in song, as was just said, what knowledge makes one rule?

Alcibiades. The one you just mentioned, chorus training.

Socrates. What then? What do you call the knowledge of those sharing in the state?

Alcibiades. Good counsel, Socrates.

Socrates. What then? Does the knowledge of pilots seem to be bad counsel?

Alcibiades. Certainly not.

Socrates. But good counsel?