If, then, we are to use the women for the same things as the men,
we must also teach them the same things.
Yes.
Now music together with gymnastic was the training we gave the men.
Yes.
Then we must assign these two arts to the women also and the offices of war and employ them in the same way.
It would seem likely from what you say,
he replied. Perhaps, then,
said I, the contrast with present custom Footnote 1Reformers always denounce this source of wit while conservative satirists maintain that ridicule is a test of truth. Cf. e.g. >Renan, Avenir de la Science, p. 439
Le premier pas dans la carrière philosophique est de se cuirasser contre le ridicule,
and Lucian, Piscator 14 No harm can be done by a joke; that on the contrary, whatever is beautiful shines brighter . . . like gold cleansed,
Harmon in Loeb translation, iii. 22. There was a literature for and against custom (sometimes called συνήθεια) of which there are echoes in Cicero’s use of consuetudo, Acad. ii. 75, De off. i. 148, De nat. deor. i. 83. would make much in our proposals look ridiculous if our words Footnote 2ᾖ λέγεται: cf. on 389 D. are to be realized in fact.Yes, indeed,
he said. What then,
said I, is the funniest thing you note in them? Is it not obviously the women exercising unclad in the palestra together with the men, not only the young, but even the older, like old men in gymnasiums, Footnote 3Cf. Theaetetus 162 B, and the ὀψιμαθής or late learner in Theophrastus’ Characters xxvii. 14 Loeb. Euripides Andromache 596 ff. denounces the light attire of Spartan women when exercising. when, though wrinkled and unpleasant to look at, they still persist in exercising?
Yes, on my word,
he replied, it would seem ridiculous under present conditions.
Then,
said I, since we have set out to speak our minds, we must not fear all the jibes Footnote 4Cf. Propert. iv. 13 Muller. with which the wits would greet so great a revolution, and the sort of things they would say about gymnastics and culture, and most of all about the bearing of arms and the bestriding of horses.
You’re right,
he said. But since we have begun we must go forward to the rough part of our law, Footnote 5For a variation of this image cf. 568 D. after begging these fellows not to mind their own business Footnote 6Plato plays on his own favorite phrase. The proper business of the wit is to raise a laugh. Cf. Symposium 189 B. but to be serious, and reminding them that it is not long since the Greeks thought it disgraceful and ridiculous, as most of the barbarians Footnote 7Cf. Thucydides i. 6, Herodotus i. 10. Sikes in Anthropolgy and the Classics says this was borrowed from Thucydides, whom Wilamowitz says Plato never read. Cf. Dio Chrys. xiii. 226 M. For ἐξ οὗ cf. Demosthenes iv. 3, Isocrates v. 47. do now, for men to be seen naked. And when the practice of athletics began, first with the Cretans and then with the Lacedaemonians, it was open to the wits of that time to make fun of these practices, don’t you think so?
I do.
But when, I take it, experience showed that it is better to strip than to veil all things of this sort, then the laughter of the eyes Footnote 8Lit. what (seemed) laughable to (in) the eyes. faded away before that which reason revealed to be best, and this made it plain that he talks idly who deems anything else ridiculous but evil, and who tries to raise a laugh by looking to any other pattern of absurdity than that of folly and wrong or sets up any other standard of the beautiful as a mark for his seriousness than the good.
Most assuredly,
said he.
Book 5