Yes, well said.
But what of this sort of thing?
Heavy with wine with the eyes of a dog and the heart of a fleet deer,
Hom. Il. 1.225 Footnote 1Achilles to the commander-in-chief, Agamemon. Several lines of insult follow. and the lines that follow, Footnote 2Cf. Philebus 42 C. are these well—and other impertinences Footnote 3Cf. Gorgias 482 C. in prose or verse of private citizens to their rulers?They are not well.
They certainly are not suitable for youth to hear for the inculcation of self-control. But if from another point of view they yield some pleasure we must not be surprised, or what is your view of it?
This,
he said.
Again, to represent the wisest man as saying that this seems to him the fairest thing in the world,
When the bounteous tables are standing Laden with bread and with meat and the cupbearer ladles the sweet wine Out of the mixer and bears it and empties it into the beakers.
Hom. Od. 9.8-10 Footnote 4Odysseus in Od. ix. 8-10. For παραπλεῖαι the Homeric text has παρὰ δὲ πλήθωσι
. Plato’s treatment of the quotation is hardly fair to Homer. Aristotle, Politics 1338 a 28, cites it more fairly to illustrate the use of music for entertainment (διαγωγή). The passage, however, was liable to abuse. See the use made of it by Lucian, Parasite 10. —do you think the hearing of that sort of thing will conduce to a young man’s temperance or self-control? or this: Hunger is the most piteous death that a mortal may suffer.
Hom. Od. 12.342 Footnote 5Hom. Od. 12.342. Or to hear how Zeus Footnote 6Hom. Il. 14.294-341. lightly forgot all the designs which he devised, watching while the other gods slept, because of the excitement of his passions, and was so overcome by the sight of Hera that he is not even willing to go to their chamber, but wants to lie with her there on the ground and says that he is possessed by a fiercer desire than when they first consorted with one another, Deceiving their dear parents.
Hom. Il. 14.296 Nor will it profit them to hear of Hephaestus’s fettering Ares and Aphrodite Footnote 7Odyssey viii. 266 ff. for a like motive.No, by Zeus,
he said, I don’t think it will.
But any words or deeds of endurance in the face of all odds Footnote 8May include on Platonic principles the temptations of pleasure. Cf. Laws 191 D-E. attributed to famous men are suitable for our youth to see represented and to hear, such as:
He smote his breast and chided thus his heart,
Hom. Od. 20.17-18 Footnote 9Quoted also in Phaedo 94 D-E. Endure, my heart, for worse hast thou endured.
By all means,
he said. It is certain that we cannot allow our men to be acceptors of bribes or greedy for gain.
By no means.
Then they must not chant:
Gifts move the gods and gifts persuade dread kings.
unknown Footnote 10Suidas s. v. δῶρα says that some attributed the line to Hesiod. Cf. Euripides Medea 964, Ovid, Ars Am. iii. 653, Otto, Sprichw. d. Röm. 233. Nor should we approve Achilles’ attendant Phoenix Footnote 11See his speech, Iliad ix. 515 ff. as speaking fairly when he counselled him if he received gifts for it to defend the Achaeans, but without gifts not to lay aside his wrath;
Book 3