Soc. Do you mean by gentlemen
the intelligent or the unintelligent?
Alc. The intelligent.
Soc. And everyone is good in that wherein he is intelligent?
Alc. Yes.
Soc. And bad wherein he is unintelligent?
Alc. Of course.
Soc. Then is the shoemaker intelligent in the making of foot-gear?
Alc. Certainly.
Soc. So he is good in that article?
Alc. Good.
Soc. Well now, is not the shoemaker unintelligent in the making of clothes?
Alc. Yes.
Soc. So he is bad in that?
Alc. Yes.
Soc. Then, on this showing, the same man is both bad and good.
Alc. Apparently.
Soc. Well, can you say that good men are also bad?
Alc. No, indeed.
Soc. But whoever do you mean by the good?
Alc. I mean those who are able to rule in the city.
Soc. Not, I presume, over horses?
Alc. No, no.
Soc. But over men?
Alc. Yes.
Soc. When they are sick?
Alc. No.
Soc. Or at sea?
Alc. I say, no.
Soc. Or harvesting?
Alc. No.
Soc. Doing nothing, or doing something?
Alc. Doing something, I say.
Soc. Doing what? Try and let me know.
Alc. Well, men who do business with each other and make use of one another, as is our way of life in our cities.
Soc. Then you speak of ruling over men who make use of men?
Alc. Yes.
Soc. Over boatswains who make use of rowers?
Alc. No, no.
Soc. Because that is the pilot’s distinction?
Alc. Yes.
Soc. Well, do you mean ruling over men who are flute-players, and who lead the singing and make use of dancers?
Alc. No, no.
Soc. Because, again, that is the chorus-teacher’s function?
Alc. To be sure.
Soc. But whatever do you mean by being able to rule over men who make use of men?
Alc. I mean ruling over men in the city who share in it as fellow-citizens, and do business with each other.
Soc. Well, what art is this? Suppose I should ask you over again, as I did just now, what art makes men know how to rule over fellow-sailors?
Alc. The pilot’s.
Soc. And what knowledge—to repeat what was said a moment ago—makes them rule over their fellow-singers?
Alc. That which you just mentioned, the chorus-teacher’s.
Soc. Well now, what do you call the knowledge of one’s fellow-citizens?
Alc. Good counsel, I should say, Socrates.
Soc. Well, and is the pilot’s knowledge evil counsel?
Alc. No, no.
Soc. Rather good counsel?